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[11:41:02] <chru> hi, i have a question (again).
[11:41:17] <chru> when i build an NP like this: mkNP (every_Det cn), i get one linearization, e.g. "every surfer eats a tasty coconut". however, when i add another variant: mkNP all_Predet (mkNP aPl_Det cn), i suddenyl get four linearizations -- two with "all" and two with "every", with both the singular and the plural form of the verb. so two are correct ("every surfer eats a tasty coconut", "all surfers eat a tasty coconut") and two are wrong ("every surfe
[11:42:48] <spectie> "all surfers eat a tasty coconut" <-- this is semantically pretty weird
[11:45:29] <inariksit> chru: that's weird, in StructuralEng all_Predet is defined just as   all_Predet = ss "all" ;
[11:46:11] <chru> spectie: yes, this grammar doesn't yet care about semantics, this will be subject of tomorrow's class ;)
[11:46:23] <spectie> :D
[11:46:28] <spectie> nice
[11:46:54] <spectie> (of course i mean that "tasty coconut" is redundant, all coconuts are tasty)
[11:47:03] <chru> hehe
[11:47:03] <inariksit> :D
[11:47:23] <chru> inariksit: i also don't understand why adding a second variant should surface a second variant with "every". maybe i messed up something...
[11:49:00] <inariksit> predets are a little weird, you can add them to a NP
[11:49:11] <inariksit> it's already quantified, so you can even get "all every surfer"
[11:50:01] <inariksit> Lang> p "all every child eats cars"
[11:50:02] <inariksit> PhrUtt NoPConj (UttS (UseCl (TTAnt TPres ASimul) PPos (PredVP (PredetNP all_Predet (DetCN every_Det (UseN child_N))) (ComplSlash (SlashV2a eat_V2) (DetCN (DetQuant IndefArt NumPl) (UseN car_N)))))) NoVoc
[11:50:22] <spectie> "No two people are not on fire. "
[11:50:52] <spectie> http://www.hrwiki.org/wiki/kids%27_book
[11:51:55] <chru> hm, ok. i only used the predet because mkDet "all" is not an option...
[11:54:32] <inariksit> chru: aarne said it's something with variants
[11:54:54] <chru> aha
[12:01:46] <inariksit> chru: I'd just make my own all_Det, using MorphoEng's mkDeterminer
[12:01:54] <inariksit> even though it's not recommended to use low-level hacking :P
[12:03:01] <inariksit> and then ideally add an API function to make a determiner :P I guess RGL design just assumes that you don't need to form new items in closed class, but obviously, if there is no all_Det in RGL, you need to
[12:03:22] <chru> exactly. but the mkDeterminer looks like a good solution for now, thanks. (and it's less low-level than building the record oneself ;) )
[12:04:18] <inariksit> :-P
[12:04:21] <inariksit> yeah
[12:04:28] <inariksit> I'm going to lunch now
[12:04:42] <spectie> bon profit!
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[13:54:20] <jstar> oh, Google is now indexing the IRC logs!
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[15:09:48] <jstar> how many ECTS would you expect for a one-week summer school, roughly?
[15:09:53] <jstar> 1.5?
[15:09:55] <jstar> 3.0?
[15:11:17] <jstar> whoops wrong channel
[15:11:52] <spectie> 3.0
[15:11:58] <spectie> is what my MT course in helsinki got
[15:12:00] <spectie> :)
[15:12:04] <jstar> thanks spectie!
[15:12:04] <spectie> 5 days 8 hours/day
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[18:23:57] <inariksit> haha, I only now realised (in the middle of doing something else) that "all" does behave like that; you can say "all my X (is gone)" or "all the X (are nice)", just that "all every" was so strange that I stopped thinking of examples
[18:24:46] <inariksit> jstar: a friend had 8 credits from a 2-week summer school
[18:24:58] <inariksit> but he also had to do an exam in helsinki
[18:27:51] <chru> now that you give those examples: indeed!
[18:28:22] <chru> actually one of my students imitated the all_Det by (mkNP all_Predet (mkNP aPl_Det cn))
[18:31:11] <inariksit> does that add a "the"?
[18:31:25] <inariksit> you could still say all surfers instead of all the surfers
[18:31:34] <inariksit> but maybe all_Predet combined with a MassNP? :-P
[18:31:41] <inariksit> btw, why are your students not here? :D
[18:32:56] <chru> yes, but "all surfers" was what we were looking for (so some kind of all_Det instead of all_Predet)
[18:33:11] <chru> and true, i have to point them to the IRC!
[18:34:38] <inariksit> ah right, I didn't read properly your line, it was aPl_Det
[18:34:42] <inariksit> yes!
[18:34:55] <inariksit> when you start your next class, just show them the channel on projector
[18:34:58] <inariksit> that's what I do
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[19:17:22] <jstar> inariksit: 8 sounds like quite a lot!
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[21:04:13] <inariksit> jstar: yeah, maybe it was because of the exam in helsinki
[21:04:28] <inariksit> hi mmehdig! any progress with the persian grammar fixes?
[21:04:46] <spectie> persian \o/
[21:05:03] <mmehdig> Hi, I didn
[21:05:20] <mmehdig> I didn't do any thing new since yesterday
[21:07:35] <inariksit> ok :)
[21:08:26] <inariksit> if you're doing some things and have questions, you can ask here anytime
[21:08:36] <mmehdig> I think I can fix the compounds verbs which ends with 'to be' N0+toBe
[21:09:52] <inariksit> that was just a question of the verb "to be" being irregular and the 2-arg smart paradigm didn't cover that properly?
[21:10:01] <mmehdig> during the lectures with aarne, he mentioned something like np ++ BIND ++ vp
[21:10:20] <inariksit> yeah, BIND is that &+ magic token
[21:11:22] <mmehdig> "to be" verbs in present tens have two forms in Perisan. one of them is actually connects to the noun
[21:12:11] <spectie> clitic ?
[21:13:18] <mmehdig> clitic-like but it's actual verb.
[21:13:27] <spectie> well, a verb form can be clitic
[21:13:29] <inariksit> ok, and the beAux is just the forms that don't connect?
[21:13:29] <spectie> like in turkic
[21:13:36] <mmehdig> yes
[21:13:41] <spectie> inariyim = i am inari
[21:13:50] <inariksit> spectie: hi inari!
[21:13:54] <spectie> LOL
[21:13:57] <spectie> probably in persian it is -am ?
[21:14:09] <mmehdig> exactly
[21:14:18] <mmehdig> yes!
[21:14:23] <spectie> can inari say: "inariyam" ?
[21:14:25] <spectie> i cannot say that
[21:14:27] <spectie> because i am not inari
[21:14:37] <mmehdig> yes she can
[21:14:49] <spectie> ^^
[21:15:00] <inariksit> haha, we can be loose on semantics here :-D
[21:15:06] <inariksit> so go ahead, inariyam everyone
[21:15:11] <spectie> haha
[21:15:20] <mmehdig> you can say: man Francisam
[21:15:44] <spectie> nom-i man Francis ast
[21:16:35] <mmehdig> "ast" and "hast" is the long form. "-e" is the short form
[21:17:07] <inariksit> haha that sounds so indo-european ^^
[21:17:15] <inariksit> or well the possessive suffix (?) -i doesn't
[21:17:23] <spectie> that's izofat
[21:17:32] <spectie> which is like a joiny case
[21:18:09] <mmehdig> yes we have ezafe. in my accent I say "naam-e man mehdi ast."
[21:18:34] <spectie> :)
[21:18:36] <mmehdig> informal form: "man mehdi-am"
[21:19:14] <inariksit> Lang> p "my name is John"  | l
[21:19:14] <inariksit> my name is John
[21:19:14] <inariksit> نام من جان است
[21:19:33] <inariksit> which form does the GF grammar have?
[21:20:05] <mmehdig> naam-e man John ast.
[21:20:40] <spectie>  echo '<inariksit> نام من جان است' | uconv -x latn
[21:20:40] <spectie> <inariksit> nạm mn jạn ạst
[21:20:40] <spectie> :)
[21:20:57] <spectie> uconv is great (if you don't read some script)
[21:21:17] <mmehdig> I didn't know this trick :D
[21:22:07] <inariksit> mmehdig: right, yeah, that was expected, you just said there's just the non-clitic forms :D
[21:22:17] <inariksit> spectie: haha, I was just lamenting that I don't read persoarabit
[21:22:18] <inariksit> *c
[21:22:21] <mmehdig> the problem is in compound verbs.
[21:22:24] <inariksit> but this is easier!
[21:22:39] <mmehdig> even with non-clitic form!
[21:24:14] <mmehdig> for instance: I hate [something]. (man motenafer hastam as [something])
[21:24:25] <mmehdig> motenafer + toBeVerb
[21:25:02] <mmehdig> I think we have it as toBeAux now.
[21:25:17] <inariksit> yeah there was just the beAux when we looked at it
[21:31:39] <mmehdig> I actually don't know how to fix series of similar things. like "tire_V". because the closest translations in persian are "to be tired", and "to become tired", "to make tired"
[21:32:43] <inariksit> to make tired would be tire_V2
[21:32:47] <mmehdig> "to be" and its pseudo-copulas
[21:33:42] <inariksit> but yeah, lots of things sound weird if the abstract syntax of a lexicon is english; for domain-specific applications you can pick idiomatic constructions for each language
[21:34:11] <inariksit> and for wide-coverage translation, the aim is more like "might sound awkward but it's grammatically and semantically ok"
[21:38:34] <inariksit> also for english, it's "X is tired" rather than "X tires"
[21:38:57] <inariksit> but anyway there is an underlying verb "tire" whose participle "tired" is
[21:39:34] <spectie> one tires of this
[21:39:52] <spectie> you can use 'tire', but it is slightly different
[21:40:06] <spectie> it's more like "get fed up with/bored of "
[21:41:51] <inariksit> ok, right
[21:42:32] <spectie> :)
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